GTR versus Z06
04-28-2007, 09:18 PM
#1
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GTR versus Z06
I am also a member of the corvetteforum.com. There is a huge thread GTR lovers may want to look at over there under C6Z06 subdivision. Sounds as if many people there are not worried about the GTR as competition at all, dismiss it prematurely, and conclude that it will be a mediocre and "thrown together" car. There is quite a bit of heated discussion over there, and I have been apart of it. I am interested to know educated opinions here on this subject. Please be realistic!
05-01-2007, 10:39 AM
#2
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i have a hot news flash for corvetteforums:
a 5 year R&D program, rumoured to have an international team of engineers assembled, is not a thrown-together car.
next point: the GT-R ethos is to be a race car first and foremost, as it is homologated for street use for this very purpose to comply with regional and international sanctioning requirements for GT racing.
next point: the memories of many are evidently very short as only 3 years ago Nissan reissued the R34 in a limited edition road-going form called the Z-Tune. do you know what that car did? it became the fastest production car built at the time, destroying McLaren F1.
what do you think the Z-Tune was built to prove? it was created to foreshadow what direction the next generation of GT-R would take. why would Nissan R&D the GT-R for as long as they have to not beat the old-news Z06 benchmarks? or worse, "barely hang" with Porsche? such an ethos is not whatsoever what the GT-R is about --the GT-R is about domination and total victory to the extent of overkill.
next point: Corvette is a relative newcomer to international motorsports compared to Nissan and definitely compared to Porsche. why would Nissan overlook Corvette and only focus on Porsche, particularly when Corvette has been beating Porsche? the fact is that Nissan cannot be taken out to the cleaners by ---> an "American" car. that would be a total and absolute failure of mission for the GT-R ----- to beat Porsche but lose to a Corvette! the symbolic consequences of Corvette dominating the GT-R would be tantamount to death for Nissan's image and reputation on the world stage.
realistic is that the GT-R will outperform not only Porsche 997tt and Z06, but as well beat Porsche GT3 and possibly Carrera GT. the GT-R is an exotic-level performance car and is engineered for the long-haul warfare that is being fought as we speak in the new-era-reanaissance of horsepower and performance battles.
a 5 year R&D program, rumoured to have an international team of engineers assembled, is not a thrown-together car.
next point: the GT-R ethos is to be a race car first and foremost, as it is homologated for street use for this very purpose to comply with regional and international sanctioning requirements for GT racing.
next point: the memories of many are evidently very short as only 3 years ago Nissan reissued the R34 in a limited edition road-going form called the Z-Tune. do you know what that car did? it became the fastest production car built at the time, destroying McLaren F1.
what do you think the Z-Tune was built to prove? it was created to foreshadow what direction the next generation of GT-R would take. why would Nissan R&D the GT-R for as long as they have to not beat the old-news Z06 benchmarks? or worse, "barely hang" with Porsche? such an ethos is not whatsoever what the GT-R is about --the GT-R is about domination and total victory to the extent of overkill.
next point: Corvette is a relative newcomer to international motorsports compared to Nissan and definitely compared to Porsche. why would Nissan overlook Corvette and only focus on Porsche, particularly when Corvette has been beating Porsche? the fact is that Nissan cannot be taken out to the cleaners by ---> an "American" car. that would be a total and absolute failure of mission for the GT-R ----- to beat Porsche but lose to a Corvette! the symbolic consequences of Corvette dominating the GT-R would be tantamount to death for Nissan's image and reputation on the world stage.
realistic is that the GT-R will outperform not only Porsche 997tt and Z06, but as well beat Porsche GT3 and possibly Carrera GT. the GT-R is an exotic-level performance car and is engineered for the long-haul warfare that is being fought as we speak in the new-era-reanaissance of horsepower and performance battles.
05-01-2007, 04:39 PM
#3
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Hey Bonzelite---about 80% of what you just said is EXACTLY what I have been stating over on the Corvetteforum. I totally agree that Nissan would not have delayed introduction, or for that part even built the new GTR , to be "just faster than the Porsche".
For the most part they keep talking about the how "heavy" the car looked at Laguna and how the tires were "continually squeaking" and losing traction, and that it must be ill handling since the tires were changed multiple times, and that it is ugly and doesn't at all look "agile", and that AWD is nothing but a disadvantage and unnecessary weight.
Nissan has nearly a year until the release in the U.S. and are only showing us what they WANT us to see. I truly believe they are sandbagging, and it seems to be swallowed hook line and sinker by most of those non-Nissan loving observers.
Like I said, I could have easily bought a new Z-06 many times over, but wanted to wait for something better, which I truly believe it will be. I hope we are not all disappointed with the long wait we have had, and I don't believe it will happen.
For the most part they keep talking about the how "heavy" the car looked at Laguna and how the tires were "continually squeaking" and losing traction, and that it must be ill handling since the tires were changed multiple times, and that it is ugly and doesn't at all look "agile", and that AWD is nothing but a disadvantage and unnecessary weight.
Nissan has nearly a year until the release in the U.S. and are only showing us what they WANT us to see. I truly believe they are sandbagging, and it seems to be swallowed hook line and sinker by most of those non-Nissan loving observers.
Like I said, I could have easily bought a new Z-06 many times over, but wanted to wait for something better, which I truly believe it will be. I hope we are not all disappointed with the long wait we have had, and I don't believe it will happen.
05-01-2007, 05:10 PM
#4
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well the thing is that (as i did read every page of that thread on corvetteforums.com) there is largely a huge knowledge gap between the typical redneck corvette fan and the world of import tuning. yet many import tuners know fully about the LS1, LS2, LS6, etc... as those engines are also used in Holdens. so that is A#1 working against most of the members of that board, they are simply unaware of other makes of cars because they have chosen to remain in their "bubble of pride" over largely one make of car from one manufacturer. they may know about mustangs and a bit about mopar, but overall i have the impression that corvetteforums is largely for the mullet crowd. this is rather embarrassing for me to an extent as the corvette has risen to world-class status, with it's fanbase largely stuck in pre-civil rights alabama. so that is a big factor.
another factor against them is that simply history (which they are even less aware of) is casting a long shadow over other makes of GT-class cars going back to Bathurst in 1989 and in the subsequent Group A and Group N years that immediately followed. even before that, the 1969, 70, 71 2000GT-R KPGC10 dominated Japanese Gran Prix as well as others, namely defeating the favoured Porsche. nowhere on that thread is this ever mentioned.
adding to this, the culture and engineering ethos behind first the Prince Skyline and then the Nissan GT-R has always been to create a formidable force in a very (seemingly) "benign" package, hence, the GT-R has traditionally been based upon a sedan geometry, much to the shock of Porsche which has always been a purpose-built coupe "true" sports car. take that point very seriously when contemplating the heritage and philosophy of the GT-R culture. the very aggressive and brutal elegance of a GT-R exactly derives from it's heritage as a sedan, and this design perspective has been maintained even as the GT-R is now built as a coupe-only GT performer. the heritage of the sedan-esque stance and presence is maintained in the GT-R's continuing transformations --very much setting it apart yet again from the Porsche or Corvette "true sports car" look. yet the GT-R has taught and will continue to teach these true-sports-cars very profound lessons.
none of what i have stated here is considered or remotely imagined on corvetteforums. and it is only to the detriment of it's members, remaining judgmental over something they know little about.
another factor against them is that simply history (which they are even less aware of) is casting a long shadow over other makes of GT-class cars going back to Bathurst in 1989 and in the subsequent Group A and Group N years that immediately followed. even before that, the 1969, 70, 71 2000GT-R KPGC10 dominated Japanese Gran Prix as well as others, namely defeating the favoured Porsche. nowhere on that thread is this ever mentioned.
adding to this, the culture and engineering ethos behind first the Prince Skyline and then the Nissan GT-R has always been to create a formidable force in a very (seemingly) "benign" package, hence, the GT-R has traditionally been based upon a sedan geometry, much to the shock of Porsche which has always been a purpose-built coupe "true" sports car. take that point very seriously when contemplating the heritage and philosophy of the GT-R culture. the very aggressive and brutal elegance of a GT-R exactly derives from it's heritage as a sedan, and this design perspective has been maintained even as the GT-R is now built as a coupe-only GT performer. the heritage of the sedan-esque stance and presence is maintained in the GT-R's continuing transformations --very much setting it apart yet again from the Porsche or Corvette "true sports car" look. yet the GT-R has taught and will continue to teach these true-sports-cars very profound lessons.
none of what i have stated here is considered or remotely imagined on corvetteforums. and it is only to the detriment of it's members, remaining judgmental over something they know little about.
05-01-2007, 09:06 PM
#5
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i posted this on corvetteforum.com:
"i've read the whole thread thus far.
some members are actually balanced in their views about the Z06 v GT-R issue, with some actual owners of GT-Rs (and other AWD GT-type cars) providing rebuttals; however, many members posting in this thread act (apparently) unaware of other cars outside of the mindset of: "USA Corvette Pride #1". to the latter members, it must be indicated that there are other cars that exist by other manufacturers.
yes absolutely, the Z06 has risen to be taken seriously as a relevant world-contender, and as such merits great pride and admiration. it is a serious killing machine. but the Corvette is not the only car that exists. a time in the sun exists for other cars, and the Corvette will encounter this on it's way to compete another day.
design and engineering ethos and techniques across manufacturers differs; a RWD pushrod V8, with a glass fiber body, is not the only technology that exists to great effectiveness. to other members curious about the history of another make of car, please refer to Group A and Group N racing at Bathurst and the Nurburgring during the reign of Godzilla, ie, the R32 GT-R. please refer to Japanese Gran Prix history of mid to late 1960s and 70s involving the 2000GT-R KPGC10, and the Prince Skyline S50. please refer to the Z-Tune R34 GT-R. i invite members to research ATTESA-ETS Pro and HICAS and the S20 and RB26 inline-6 engines and their historical significance. i have given key titles and words to goggle away for those fellow motorsport enthusiasts who love performance cars wishing to expand their knowledge base.
the GT-R is among the most revered and formidable icons of international automotive motorsport. it's history and culture are very compelling as well as foretelling. and any new iteration of a GT-R will provide the necessary continuance of this philosophy, much to the shock of the naysayers that have either a very short memory or are without prior knowledge. please, to those that are car nuts, research the GT-R a bit more, using the prior key words i have provided.
as for me, i drive a 2006 Pontiac GTO and am a member of the local Tri-Valley GTO Club. so i am very much a fan of American Muscle, the LS2, and love performance cars in general, regardless of make. i have great respect for Corvette, as that car has grown on me a great deal, and have nothing much bad to say about the car despite it's obvious (if not endearing) shortcomings.
obviously we all love performance cars. let us share in that and learn about the competition. after all, competition is what raises the bar in any auto manufacturer's engineering approaches. competitive edge has been a godsend to the Corvette program as it has risen right to the top. so a take a while to look into how it may as well be soon eclipsed... "
"i've read the whole thread thus far.
some members are actually balanced in their views about the Z06 v GT-R issue, with some actual owners of GT-Rs (and other AWD GT-type cars) providing rebuttals; however, many members posting in this thread act (apparently) unaware of other cars outside of the mindset of: "USA Corvette Pride #1". to the latter members, it must be indicated that there are other cars that exist by other manufacturers.
yes absolutely, the Z06 has risen to be taken seriously as a relevant world-contender, and as such merits great pride and admiration. it is a serious killing machine. but the Corvette is not the only car that exists. a time in the sun exists for other cars, and the Corvette will encounter this on it's way to compete another day.
design and engineering ethos and techniques across manufacturers differs; a RWD pushrod V8, with a glass fiber body, is not the only technology that exists to great effectiveness. to other members curious about the history of another make of car, please refer to Group A and Group N racing at Bathurst and the Nurburgring during the reign of Godzilla, ie, the R32 GT-R. please refer to Japanese Gran Prix history of mid to late 1960s and 70s involving the 2000GT-R KPGC10, and the Prince Skyline S50. please refer to the Z-Tune R34 GT-R. i invite members to research ATTESA-ETS Pro and HICAS and the S20 and RB26 inline-6 engines and their historical significance. i have given key titles and words to goggle away for those fellow motorsport enthusiasts who love performance cars wishing to expand their knowledge base.
the GT-R is among the most revered and formidable icons of international automotive motorsport. it's history and culture are very compelling as well as foretelling. and any new iteration of a GT-R will provide the necessary continuance of this philosophy, much to the shock of the naysayers that have either a very short memory or are without prior knowledge. please, to those that are car nuts, research the GT-R a bit more, using the prior key words i have provided.
as for me, i drive a 2006 Pontiac GTO and am a member of the local Tri-Valley GTO Club. so i am very much a fan of American Muscle, the LS2, and love performance cars in general, regardless of make. i have great respect for Corvette, as that car has grown on me a great deal, and have nothing much bad to say about the car despite it's obvious (if not endearing) shortcomings.
obviously we all love performance cars. let us share in that and learn about the competition. after all, competition is what raises the bar in any auto manufacturer's engineering approaches. competitive edge has been a godsend to the Corvette program as it has risen right to the top. so a take a while to look into how it may as well be soon eclipsed... "
05-02-2007, 12:35 PM
#7
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thanks, Blue. but wow i've never quite seen such close-mindedness and ignorance about cars on any forum before as i've seen on corvetteforums --man! it's nearly unbelievable! are those people for real? the IQ levels over there are able to be counted on one hand. holy bejeezus.
they act as if no other car is better than the corvette. or can possibly be. or even exists!
they act as if no other car is better than the corvette. or can possibly be. or even exists!
05-02-2007, 06:31 PM
#8
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Posts: 5
HAHA if you two are done stroking each other maybe you can look at some of the facts, the GTR, although still not out yet, is barely keeping up with the 997 turbo at test tracks in the states. It's AWD and will weigh over 3300 lbs. You mention a Ztune car???? Comon that's a tuner car, how about we take a Lingentfelter corvette and test it at the Ring or a RUF porsche and test that as well.
YOU HAVE LOST YOUR FREAKING MIND IF YOU THINK THIS CAR WILL KEEP UP WITH THE CARERRA GT.
OK, back to your regularly schedule dillusions.
YOU HAVE LOST YOUR FREAKING MIND IF YOU THINK THIS CAR WILL KEEP UP WITH THE CARERRA GT.
OK, back to your regularly schedule dillusions.
05-02-2007, 06:48 PM
#9
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HAHA if you two are done stroking each other maybe you can look at some of the facts, the GTR, although still not out yet, is barely keeping up with the 997 turbo at test tracks in the states. It's AWD and will weigh over 3300 lbs. You mention a Ztune car???? Comon that's a tuner car, how about we take a Lingentfelter corvette and test it at the Ring or a RUF porsche and test that as well.
YOU HAVE LOST YOUR FREAKING MIND IF YOU THINK THIS CAR WILL KEEP UP WITH THE CARERRA GT.
OK, back to your regularly schedule dillusions.
YOU HAVE LOST YOUR FREAKING MIND IF YOU THINK THIS CAR WILL KEEP UP WITH THE CARERRA GT.
OK, back to your regularly schedule dillusions.
05-02-2007, 06:48 PM
#10
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Posts: 869
the Z-Tune is the benchmark by which subsequent GT-Rs are to be measured against. as well, the GT-R has been available in model variants and will be again. Nissan production factory variants will feature differing levels of trim and tune, more than likely resembling past iterations of the S-Tune, R-Tune, N-Spec Nur, V-Spec, etc.... as such, the Nissan GT-R is not being designed to "barely keep up" with the 997tt. it is being designed to slaughter it to death.
as well, a 5 year R&D schedule for Nissan's GT-R is not such that it was done merely to only "barely hang" with an older and technologically simpler Z06, that which is beating Porsche. therefore, both Porsche and Z06 are slated for slaughter. the level at which the GT-R may very well perform is a Nurburgring sub 7:40, more than likely mid to low 7:30s in some factory trim level. as stated by Nissan, the GT-R's R&D is more intensively regarding Nurburgring lap times and overall performance in a GT package as opposed to all-out brute power as is seen in the true-sports-car idiom of the Z06.
Nissan would not put it's reputation and investments on the line for a 5 year rollout development regimen of it's iconic halo GT-R --only to remain beaten by Porsche or just "barely hang with" other such cars of that performance level, ie, Z06, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Pagani Zonda, others. such an ethos is antithetical to Nissan tuning and GT-R dominance that is a hallmark of that icon.
as well, a 5 year R&D schedule for Nissan's GT-R is not such that it was done merely to only "barely hang" with an older and technologically simpler Z06, that which is beating Porsche. therefore, both Porsche and Z06 are slated for slaughter. the level at which the GT-R may very well perform is a Nurburgring sub 7:40, more than likely mid to low 7:30s in some factory trim level. as stated by Nissan, the GT-R's R&D is more intensively regarding Nurburgring lap times and overall performance in a GT package as opposed to all-out brute power as is seen in the true-sports-car idiom of the Z06.
Nissan would not put it's reputation and investments on the line for a 5 year rollout development regimen of it's iconic halo GT-R --only to remain beaten by Porsche or just "barely hang with" other such cars of that performance level, ie, Z06, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Pagani Zonda, others. such an ethos is antithetical to Nissan tuning and GT-R dominance that is a hallmark of that icon.